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berto
Post subject: UK pop idol winner Will Young on 'post-homosexuality'  PostPosted: Jul 28, 2007 - 11:35 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Location: Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia, Canada
Times online

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I remembered this little incident after reading Matthew Parris’s article in The Times on Thursday. He used his column to out himself out as “posthomosexualist” and chronicled his boredom with any talk about gay rights – all the battles have been won, he wrote, what’s left to say? We’ve got the political changes we’ve wanted, so we gays should stop banging on about being gay.

I’m not so confident that we can afford to be so complacent. I’m not so sure that someone being gay is not an issue for other people; old fears still lurk. Were the taxi driver’s remarks, for example, a) a veiled bigoted response from someone reacting unfavourably to my sexuality? Or b) a good-hearted attempt at dealing with his own discomfort and awkwardness. Ever the optimist, I choose the latter.

And there is a lot to be optimistic about. Much of what Parris wrote I agree with. In the 40 years since the decriminalisation of homosexuality, the passing of gay rights on to the statute book has been a triumph. Gay couples have more security and equality thanks to civil partnerships, and gays are now treated with fairness before the eyes of the law. So as a gay man, I celebrate this and feel lucky to be alive in Britain in 2007.

But it is important to draw a distinction between legal change and the shift in attitudes. It is quicker to pass a law than achieve the necessary movement of public opinion – and attitudes still lag behind the law. So we can’t yet give ourselves a proverbial pat on the back.

The next stage is trickier. It’s how to make people understand that gays are utterly normal; it’s how to change outlooks so that it never crosses people’s minds that to be gay is to be so different or alien; or to stare if two men hold hands, or to do a double take if a man says “meet my husband”; it’s how to be able to be honest about yourself without people accusing you of “ramming your homosexuality down my throat”. Hop over to the Netherlands and sexuality is not such an issue; but here in Britain things are different. I am still often referred to as the “gay pop idol – Will Young” (very much in that order of importance); yet in other countries the gay word doesn’t come into it – someone’s sexuality is regarded rightly as a being an irrelevance or unnoteworthy.

When I made my decision to be open about my sexuality, the overwhelmingly positive response astounded me. But sadly you still read headlines in papers that say so and so “Admits to being gay” or “Confesses to being homosexual”, as if saying you prefer to sleep with men is an admission of some guilty, sordid shame. Coming out should just be a statement of fact – I have red hair, I drink tea, I sleep with the same sex.


Ahhh, one of these "gay is just a *part* of who I am" assimilationists...

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Rain
Post subject: RE: UK pop idol winner Will Young on  PostPosted: Jul 29, 2007 - 06:07 AM



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Quote:

Coming out should just be a statement of fact – I have red hair, I drink tea, I sleep with the same sex.


I once wrote that coming out is never complete because as gay men, we are continuously challenging ourselves (and being challenged) to live up to certain ideas and ideals of masculinity...all of which we have to continue to fight against and redefine in our own terms. I have to also add that being gay is no statement of fact, it still is very much a statement of revolution in a world that contiuously seeks to suppress, deny and eliminate our very existence.

To believe otherwise is to allow those very ideas and ideals of masculinity that assault our basic humanity to defeat our intrinsic gayness.

Those who choose to believe that being gay is a "mere" statement of fact have already been defeated. And in doing so they denigrate the lives of the millions of gay men and women who have risked their lives in the past and continue to do so today just by "merely" being who and what they are.
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 29, 2007 - 09:54 PM



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Ah... if you liked Will Young's piece, then you'll just LOVE the Matthew Parris bit that Mr Young is rebutting (in his own fashion).

Quote:
I’m coming out as a post-homosexualist. Forty years (tomorrow) after the 1967 law ending the absolute prohibition of homosexuality, 13 years after the reduction of the age of consent from 21 to 18, six years after the further reduction from 18 to 16, and two years after the arrival of civil partnerships, I have finally become bored with the whole damn thing. Bored, not with being gay, but with talking about it. I blame Tony Blair.

Do cats witter endlessly on about being cats? Do redheads drive us to distraction with their thoughts on being ginger? How many serious comment columns in the editorial pages of newspapers are devoted to the musings of straight men on what it is to be a heterosexual? No, they just get on with it – with being cats, redheads or straights. Such things are for the lifestyle sections of weekend magazines, not rubbing shoulders with the debate on global warming, housing or the terrorist threat.

Fellow-queers: stop moaning. How interesting is any of this to the rest of the world any more? Other groups out there have it worse than we do in Britain. We’ve got the political changes we asked for. Social change will take longer but it’s happening, steadily. Kidding ourselves that we inhabit some sort of a gulag is making it harder, not easier, for the next generation to relax about their sexuality. Let’s remind them that in the whole history of mankind there has been no better, luckier, time or place to be gay than Britain in 2007.

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 - 05:31 AM



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Ah, the ennui of those who've had the battles fought for them and can comfortably sit back and enjoy the fruits of other people's labors.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 - 06:36 AM



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Wink Indeed. I am periodically amazed at the remarkable difference of opinion that exists on this issue. "Kidding ourselves that we inhabit some sort of a gulag is making it harder, not easier, for the next generation to relax about their sexuality"? The author lives in a country where a man can expect to receive 18 months for beating a "friend" to death for no more serious offense than having the hubris to say that he was Gay. It seems he "relaxed about his sexuality" just a little too much, hmm? The author lives in a country where Gays are murdered in the streets. He lives in a country where Gay boys lay down in front of trains rather than face another day in it.

No... that is most certainly NOT "some sort of Gulag," but neither is it anything resembling a "better, luckier time." If it is true that "in the whole history of mankind there has been no better, luckier, time or place to be gay than Britain in 2007" (and I contest the accuracy of this statement), then that says nothing good whatsoever about Britain's (or anyone else's) history.

Quote:
Do cats witter endlessly on about being cats? Do redheads drive us to distraction with their thoughts on being ginger? How many serious comment columns in the editorial pages of newspapers are devoted to the musings of straight men on what it is to be a heterosexual? No, they just get on with it – with being cats, redheads or straights.


Were we to venture into the whimsy that cats 'witter' about anything, then yes, I'm afraid it's likely that the constant yowling and mewling my cat has taken to of late really would translate into English as any number of statements that begin with "I'm a cat and I want...." I further doubt that very many people who share their lives with cats would agree with the author on this point: Cats may "just get on with being cats," but they most assuredly do so accompanied by a running commentary on the process. As for redheads -- I have to wonder how many gingers the author is acquainted with. As it happens, I currently have a red-headed co-worker -- the color of her hair does not enter her conversation every day, just roughly 3 out of 5 days. How many serious comment columns in the editorial pages of newspapers are devoted to the musings of straight men on what it is to be a heterosexual? I'll let someone else do the research on that one -- the number is not zero. I doubt very much that, given a reasonable definition of "musing on what it is to be a heterosexual," the total volume is less than 25%.

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vanrozenheim
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 - 08:26 AM
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Quote:
The next stage is trickier. It’s how to make people understand that gays are utterly normal; it’s how to change outlooks so that it never crosses people’s minds that to be gay is to be so different or alien; [..] yet in other countries the gay word doesn’t come into it – someone’s sexuality is regarded rightly as a being an irrelevance or unnoteworthy.


What our assimilationist folks fail to understand is that peacefull coexistence of differences is the GREATE GOAL, not eradication of all differences. It is rather pointless to argue that "we are all equal" while everybody can see we are not - instead, people must learn to accept the other, no matter how "alien" he or she might be.

They think that every tiny difference to the standard heterosexual appearence is bad and must be eradicated. This misunderstanding is the clue to the very awkward demands from other Gays to appear "more normal", "more masculine" and "less camp." The ideal world they dream of is when Gay men will belch, swear, play football and generally be no different from straight men except for what they do in bed. When Gays will be all living in strictly monogamous relationships, raise 3 or 4 children in their households, go to church every Sunday, well then the straights might "accept us much more".

Basically, our victories can be reduced to the fact that on a rare moment in mankind's history, we are tolerated, for a while.
 
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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 - 12:28 PM



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It seems Simon Fanshawe has been drinking outta the same Kool-Aid jug...

Quote:
But don't let us copy their idiocy. They may think we're a group, that it matters if you're gay, but are we and does it any more? Do we have anything in common with each other just because we're gay? Are we really proud of being gay? What's to be proud of in just being something? It mattered then, when we weren't citizens. But is there any sense in it now? Sure there's the tribe. It's fun to be with people who share our experience. But does that have any more meaning than dining with mates who all play golf, or all went to university together, or are all in the Labour party? I begin to wonder. I love fag dinners. But is that really the basis for politics? We must fight prejudice.

But half the gay men I know can't be bothered to get off their insular little arses and move out of the gilded ghetto to lift a finger to do that. They'd much rather shag and drink and revel in pleasure. And why not? Just don't pretend it's politics. It's politics where you get imprisoned for it. Go to Poland or Russia or Egypt and then being gay matters.

Gay sex has changed the world. Agony aunts now get letters from young men who, on the way to describing whatever problem they have, let slip that they shag with their mates. They're not gay. They're not worried, in fact. They just sleep with their mates. There is no nobility to cock-sucking. Now we've cleared the way to equality, it's time to say to the world that who you sleep with doesn't describe your sexuality any more than it doesn't.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 - 04:13 PM



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From popular culture to politics, it's a great time to be gay - unless you are still at school

Quote:
Yet if the quality of life for homosexual adults in Britain has moved on, one tricky demographic remains. We still have a muddled, irrational and inadequate response to gay adolescents. While a generation of gay men and women has grown to enjoy confidence and widespread acceptance, there remain members of a younger slice of society that see themselves as "the only gays in the village" - and they sometimes are.

The gay community has partially itself to blame here. The concept of youth has become fetishised within the metropolitan gay idyll, driven by aspirations to a ceaselessly fashionable party lifestyle aesthetic. A whole swath of postpubescent gay men feel disenfranchised by this projection. Who is going to take on the mantle of looking after gay adolescents?

Shocking suicide statistics underline the predicament. Research has shown that 40% of gay boys bullied at school have gone on to attempt suicide. Initiatives such as the superb Barnardo's campaign against homophobic bullying go some way to mending the problems, but these are too deep to be tackled even by the best efforts of charities.

Homophobic school bullying should be dealt with in exactly the same way as racial bullying: a zero tolerance policy needs enshrining in legislation, and teachers need re-educating in how to deal with homophobia. Name calling on the grounds of sexuality is to this day accepted by many as legitimate fodder for comedy. It is far from it. Gay counselling services should be free for teenagers. Sex education itself should place equal importance on homosexuality.

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 30, 2007 - 11:23 PM



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Quote:

and teachers need re-educating in how to deal with homophobia


I'll go as far as to say that they need re-education in recognizing their own internalized brands of homophobia. Often those attitudes prevent and preclude any identification of a problem because, quite frankly, these teachers don't see one and, if alerted to one, they don't even get it.
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 31, 2007 - 02:18 AM



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Quote:
But don't let us copy their idiocy. They may think we're a group, that it matters if you're gay, but are we and does it any more? Do we have anything in common with each other just because we're gay? Are we really proud of being gay? What's to be proud of in just being something? It mattered then, when we weren't citizens. But is there any sense in it now? Sure there's the tribe. It's fun to be with people who share our experience. But does that have any more meaning than dining with mates who all play golf, or all went to university together, or are all in the Labour party? I begin to wonder. I love fag dinners. But is that really the basis for politics? We must fight prejudice.


Are we? Yes -- very much so. Does it matter any more? Of course it matters... and it always will. Do we have anything in common with each other? Heavens yes -- by definition. What's to be proud of? Better to ask what's to be ashamed of. Is there any sense in it now? Oh my... yes. Does being with people who share our experience have any more meaning than dining with fellow golfers? Ummmmmm... yeah. Is that really the basis for politics? Gods, no. It's the basis for a culture. Imagine a politics based on the shared pastime of golf -- preposterous. We are a people, not some political party. Now, Mr. Fanshawe (whose assimilationist rants have set me off in the past) says we must fight prejudice... a curious goal, but not so once you ferret out what he's on about.

Quote:
One random, prejudicially deranged, individual on the pebbles might just shout or hit or incite his mates to hate, where we see love. So yes, to the intolerant this new tolerance is a provocation. They get more intolerant, more violent and sometimes they kill.


Ah... he thinks "they" are not numerous. He thinks "they" amount to little more than "one random, prejudicially deranged, individual." Figuratively speaking, of course -- I'm sure it is not at all lost on Mr. Fanshawe that these 'deranged individuals' have historically attacked in groups, sometimes large groups. He says 'sometimes' like there's a year that goes by without anti-gay attacks. I'd like to see one of those. I"m sure one could calculate some length of period that manages to go by in Britain that contains no homophobic attacks -- I just don't think that such a period could be found that's longer than about 6 weeks.

We disagree, Mr. Fanshawe and I, on just how many of these deranged persons there are, it seems. Consequently, we disagree on the advisability of various schemes to 'educate' them -- as if derangement has ever been treated with information. Mr. Fanshawe is, I think, actually proposing the wholesale re-envisioning of heterosexual culture in Britain. I seriously question the capacity of the straight Britains to accomplish this feat. It can, I suppose, be done -- I just don't see the willingness to make the attempt. Can Gays re-envision heterosexual culture FOR them? I think not. For starters, they outnumber us something like twenty to one; if they, as a powerful majority, were unable to obliterate Gay culture after so many centuries of oppression, just what sorts of mechanisms would Mr. Fanshawe have the Gay people in Britain deploy in this battle against prejudice?

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 31, 2007 - 02:39 AM



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Quote:
Homophobic school bullying should be dealt with in exactly the same way as racial bullying: a zero tolerance policy needs enshrining in legislation, and teachers need re-educating in how to deal with homophobia. Name calling on the grounds of sexuality is to this day accepted by many as legitimate fodder for comedy. It is far from it. Gay counselling services should be free for teenagers. Sex education itself should place equal importance on homosexuality.


Yes, it would probably be helpful if legislation made perfectly clear what seems patently obvious (to me, at least): the set of behaviors that is so quaintly termed "homophobic school bullying" are illegal. Most of them are serious crimes with criminal penalties. Even in this strange land of ridiculously mild prison sentences and even more ridiculous 'rehabilitation' schemes, there is a penalty for assault causing bodily harm. There's a penalty for assault that does not cause bodily harm as well. The UK even has penalties for harassment. I suppose, if they really put their minds to it, the Brits just might see their way clear to enforce the laws when it comes to Gay school kids. There won't be a lot of re-educating of teachers necessary though -- I read that damn report on homophobia in Britain's schools, you see. Far too often, it's teachers and administrators who are violating these long-standing laws. Britain's schools have no use for re-educated teachers... they need cops. They probably need a new prison or three as well.

Gay counseling services for Gay teenagers is a dandy idea. When straight people stop being the reason the Gay teens need counseling in the first place will be the time to entrust straight people with doing the counseling.

Quote:
The gay community has partially itself to blame here. The concept of youth has become fetishised within the metropolitan gay idyll, driven by aspirations to a ceaselessly fashionable party lifestyle aesthetic. A whole swath of postpubescent gay men feel disenfranchised by this projection. Who is going to take on the mantle of looking after gay adolescents?

...

Gay children and young people have become perhaps the last forgotten minority. They have to muddle their way through this stuff by themselves. Is anyone in the country brave enough to stand up for them?


I won't dignify this bizarre claim of disenfranchisement by adult Gay projections with a response. As far as "blame" goes in the issue of homophobic bullying, it's perfectly clear that metropolitan Gay men aren't doing the bullying. It's also clear that they aren't doing anything of substance to stop it. Gay young people ought not "muddle their way" through anything by themselves. Who is going to take on the mantle of looking after Gay adolescents? It would be best all the way around if it were the Gay people... and with some promptness.

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 31, 2007 - 12:32 PM



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Well, first, you have to understand that adolescents of all orientations have a lot to muddle through. Muddling, it seems, is a fact of adolescence. Secondly, bullying, likewise, is not unique to gay adolescents. It can happen to any child for almost any reason. However being bullied for something that you yourself are trying like hell to hide and only being reminded that you can't hide it is the added mental stigma and trauma faced by gay adolescents. It's one of the many reasons why gay teens have higher suicide rates.

And yes, the gay community as whole has forgotten the ranks of the rising foot soldiers in our long march toward equality. Somehow, a gay adolescent is not gay until he's "muddled through" on his own and finally declared his or her gayness to the world. At which point, the psychological scars may take $150 an hour to heal.
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 31, 2007 - 08:14 PM



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Quote:
Somehow, a gay adolescent is not gay until he's "muddled through" on his own and finally declared his or her gayness to the world. At which point, the psychological scars may take $150 an hour to heal.


This is quite true; it is the case. It's also wrong -- heinously and inexcusably wrong.

Now yes, all adolescents muddle through -- it's what they do, it's who they are. There's nothing for it but bed rest and plenty of fluids. Adolescence is not especially treatable; it's certainly not curable, but it does resolve itself just fine... usually after ten years of recuperation. It's not adolescence that Gay kids need help with -- anyone would be a fool to suggest that it is. What Gay kids need help with is coping with a homophobic society. Make no mistake: for all the crowing about the "impressive gains of the last 40 years," one has to but glance at the straits Gay youth find themselves in to see that, in many ways, nothing of substance has changed at all.

I am at a loss here. These so-called 'gains' of the last 40 years -- give me (or Vicky, if you'd prefer... he's much nicer) a sovereign territory and all those 'gains' would be duplicated in a matter of hours. Give me a working day -- I type slowly -- and an entire wish-list of legislation can appear as if by magic. They're just pieces of paper. I can type up pieces of paper just fine. Want a Gay marriage law? Done. Want to outlaw gay-bashing as a terroristic act against the Gay State (a form of treason, if you will) -- easily accomplished. While we're at it, the entire school curriculum can be given a make-over (though separating the orientations would, in itself, go a long way toward fixing what is 'wrong' with education... mathematics aren't homophobic). Now, Gays being a disputatious lot, there would probably be considerable interest in dickering, dithering, and maybe a bit of slagging and back-stabbing to go along with the agenda. No problem -- make it 40 days. But that would be days, not years. Problems that can be solved with pieces of paper crafted in 40 days just aren't all that interesting... apart from being cogent arguments for self-determination -- a self-determination that would work on the neighborhood and municipal levels just as well as on the national (within the limits of the degree of actual self-determination that are available at lower levels of social organization).

Seeing to it that Gay adolescents can get the prescribed 'bed rest and fluids' without also having to contend with a murderous hatred that seeks to not just destroy them but utterly obliterate them... now that is an interesting problem. While interesting, it's hardly difficult. The care and feeding of Gay youngsters has been admirably demonstrated already -- it's not rocket science. All that remains is for the Gay people to begin doing it.

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 02, 2007 - 08:58 AM



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I think, Feral, that one of the unspoken principles operating is the deathly fear of that traditional accusation of child molester/pederast/pervert when dealing with people under the age of 21. Somehow, our community MUST come to grips with the fact that we can have loving, nurturing, and (gay) culturally enriching associations with gay youth without fearing retribution, scandal, innuendo or allegations of sexual misconduct.

This is something that's been on my mind recently.

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 02, 2007 - 11:10 AM



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Which, coming back to my last post, is a very potent reason why Mr. Young and his "post-homosexualist" ilk are DEAD wrong about their musings. Nothing at all has changed if we can't change certain attitudes. And I'm not talking about heterosexuals' attitudes, because the attitude I raised in my last post is one that gives even level-headed, well-healed, homos the shits.

Adoption is fine and dandy if you want to ovulate. But our community should find ways to recognize and vocalize the needs of gay youth and their inherent right to learn about who and what they are from those best able to teach them. I am thankful that when I came out the tradition of choosing a "gay mother" and "gay father" was very much a part of the gay culture in NYC (almost always the "mother" was a gay or transgender male but the father could be a lesbian or a gay male). These people provided me with the necessary tools to understand not only my gayness, but society's reaction to it and the best ways to deal with it all. It was a beautiful tradition born out of necessity...gay youths usually ended up on the streets and had to recreate a family from scratch. So strong is the need for filial identification when you're that age.

I don't know if it's the fact that parents today are less apt to abandon a child who comes out of the closet, or if its the conservative, christian mentality and draconian child-protection laws that have made that aspect of local gay culture retreat into the past. But I do notice that gay youth today, while having more institutional resources than I had when I came out, have less meaningful or influential interactions with older LGBT'ers than I did. Which leads to situations like the cultural divide that's at the root of problems between gay youth and older residents in Greenwich Village.

Frankly put...our gay youth are no longer schooled in the subtleties of being gay. Case in point...a few nights ago a friend was commenting how today's youth is very limited musically as opposed to our generation. They seem to gravitate to the one-trick pony of hip hop music and its attendant culture and have little or no knowledge of other genres of music.

Our generation was weaned on a wide and diverse musical repertoire. It's the reason why we could adapt old blues standards or Broadway show tunes from previous musical eras to a disco beat AND still knew what they were and who sung them originally. We didn't live those eras, but we were thoroughly schooled on them by the many fabulous queens who took us under their multicolored feather boas. We knew who the famous queers of the past were and why they mattered. We picked up social cues and subtle nuances about how to behave, how to interact with each other and heterosexuals. We were held to a system of respect that out on that pier had a very formal structure. It was called "paying homage" and you learned quickly how it was done and to whom on the pecking order. But, despite its origins in a gay underworld, this system formed the foundation to a code of ethics that has served me and others like me well throughout the years.

We instinctively recognize that respect must be paid not as a quid pro quo but as a matter of course, just because you should always be respectful. And we understand that arriving at our gayness was a hard fought right not to be taken for granted because many of the battles for those rights were fought for us by people we didn't know but whose memories we should always honor because they made it possible for us to be here and to be queer. In short, we were taught never to take our gayness and our rights to self-expression and self-determination for granted.
 
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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 02, 2007 - 11:41 AM



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Utterly normal my ASS! I'm NOT utterly anything if not UTTERLY MOTHERFUCKIN GAY with a capital G-A-Y! I do not want, I do not need, I do not ask for, heterosexual acceptance, benevolence or their fucking, sick, and misguided idea of tolerance.

You guys have no idea how pissed off this thread has had me for the past few days. I had been trying to gather my thoughts and make sure I came across as coherent as possible because I was ABSOLUTELY SEETHING!!!

To think this came from a Brit...a country better known for the quality of its fruit than the state of California!
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 02, 2007 - 04:43 PM



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Quote:
To think this came from a Brit...a country better known for the quality of its fruit than the state of California!


...And a country better known for the quality of it's bashers than just about anywhere. But you cannot give the UK all the blame (or credit, depending on how you feel like viewing it) for this "post-gay" nonsense. There's plenty of it floating around most everyplace these days.

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 02, 2007 - 06:56 PM



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This post-modernist crap belongs in art museums and decaying automobile plants in Michigan. It cannot be applied to a people who are still facing pre-industrial barbaric criminal sentences and death penalties in many parts of the world. Maybe in the blighted landscape that is Little Britain, with its ecstasy-addled homos haunting cavernous gay clubs like scarecrows in a cornfiled, this sort of dribble helps them through the night and allows them to wake up the next day smiling like self-deluded idiots. But in the rest of the world gay liberation is still a barely audible whisper.

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vanrozenheim
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 03, 2007 - 07:09 AM
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Joined: Aug 26, 2006
Posts: 440

Rain wrote:
You guys have no idea how pissed off this thread has had me for the past few days. I had been trying to gather my thoughts and make sure I came across as coherent as possible because I was ABSOLUTELY SEETHING!!!


Well, I was sickened by the lecture of the articles in question as well. It is pretty discouraging to see such statements coming from a fellow "homosexualist" who is so utterly deluded by whatever goods were transferred to him to let him feel "belonging". These folks have apparently no idea that the situation they were put has little similarty with the reality of an average Gay person. It puts my inside out to read a "post-homosexualist"sounding the attack against the Gay culture - just WTF he thinks he is? My anger passed away, however, upon a session of meditation about these sheeps who went astray and will hopefully find their way back to the culture which they are so eager to destroy.

I suppose, this entire assimilationist "Geschwurbel" is part of a larger media campaign towards the Greate And Splendid Future as it was apparently drafted by some homosexual strategs. Those campaigns come and go, and all of this crap was already written before about Jews, Greeks, Poles and all the other peoples who were supposed to "integrate" themselves.
 
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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 03, 2007 - 11:27 AM



Joined: Apr 12, 2007
Posts: 472
Location: NYC
Quote:

Those campaigns come and go, and all of this crap was already written before about Jews, Greeks, Poles and all the other peoples who were supposed to "integrate" themselves.


In the whole of human history I would like to see one example of integration that succeeded in NOT annihilating the culture of the people "integrated".

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Each of us inevitable; Each of us limitless - each of us with his or her right upon the earth; Each of us allowed the eternal purports of the earth; Each of us here as divinely as any is here. ~ Walt Whitman
 
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