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Feral
Post subject: RE: LGBT history month in UK shows depressing statistic  PostPosted: Mar 18, 2007 - 02:49 AM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 1754

Feral wrote:
vanrozenheim wrote:
After all, he was also quite mad - he commited seppuku out of no other reason as to raise public unrest.


Worse yet -- he commited seppuku to raise public unrest and no public unrest was forthcoming. Even worse yet -- no reasonable person would have predicted public unrest as a likely result of his actions. "Mad" is a fine way to describe Mishima. Lost in a world of romantic fantasies and dreams would be another. I have nothing against madmen -- all of my dearest friends are quite mad to some extent or another. There is nothing wrong with being lost in fantasies and dreams either... if you can write quite quickly or have someone to take dictation. It makes for lovely books.

vanrozenheim wrote:
Actually, what are the following two gentlemen - the good guys or the bad guys? I would say, it depends on whether one is/was "with US or against US"? Twisted Evil

MonkeyBoy wrote:
Guy Burgess (1911-1963), Soviet spy;

Anthony Blunt (1907-1983), Soviet spy;


Oh yes. It is my understanding that "the Cambridge Five" were among the best and most productive spies the KGB ever had. It has been said that the Soviets never had the like of such spies before and never saw the like of them after. Mr Burgess and Mr Blunt could not be said to have been the best of the five, but then the other three weren't gay so who cares?

There is something to be said for quality workmanship in one's trade, regardless of for whom you exercise that trade. I would class them among the "good," but in this instance it definitely depends very heavily upon your point of view.

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Feral
Post subject: RE: LGBT history month in UK shows depressing statistic  PostPosted: Mar 18, 2007 - 02:49 AM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 1754

vanrozenheim wrote:
MonkeyBoy wrote:
Mr. Mishima raises interesting questions about just what sort of person should be on the list. I like Mishima's writing, make no mistake, but he was also essentially a neo-fascist-- the guy had a private army, for goodness sake, Laughing


LOL! He was a Japanese "nationalist and militarist", that much for sure. After all, he was also quite mad - he commited seppuku out of no other reason as to raise public unrest. Note, it has certainly some tradition in Japan to commit seppuku in protest against one's superiors, but Mr Mishima was in no position to commit such an act of protest. He was simply mad. At least, he was a practicing homosexual - what can't be claimed of the (not less merited) Thomas Mann, who spent his entire adult life married with a female, producing little homosexual babies. Smile

Actually, what are the following two gentlemen - the good guys or the bad guys? I would say, it depends on whether one is/was "with US or against US"? Twisted Evil

MonkeyBoy wrote:
Guy Burgess (1911-1963), Soviet spy;

Anthony Blunt (1907-1983), Soviet spy;

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Feral
Post subject: RE: LGBT history month in UK shows depressing statistic  PostPosted: Mar 18, 2007 - 02:49 AM



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MonkeyBoy wrote:
Quote:
Yukio MISHIMA (1925 -1970), writer


Mr. Mishima raises interesting questions about just what sort of person should be on the list. I like Mishima's writing, make no mistake, but he was also essentially a neo-fascist-- the guy had a private army, for goodness sake, Laughing

Now, it is true that 'history' is more more than the story of heroes, so a case *can* be made for including the good, the bad and the ugly.

That being so, a few off the cuff:

Roy Cohn (1927-1986), Clout merchant & political kingmaker;

Guy Burgess (1911-1963), Soviet spy;

Anthony Blunt (1907-1983), Soviet spy;

Michel Foucault (1926-1984), Philosopher & writer;

Jean Genet (1910-1986), Writer;

Marcel Proust (1871-1922), Writer;

Rainer Werner Fassbinder (1945-1983), Film director;

Gus Van Sant (1952- living), Film director

Wolfgang Petersen (1941-living), Film director

Pier Paolo Pasolini (1922-1975), Poet, intellectual, film director, painter, activist & writer.

Thomas Mann (1875-1955), Writer.

Andr้ Gide (1869–1951), Writer.

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Feral
Post subject: RE: LGBT history month in UK shows depressing statistic  PostPosted: Mar 18, 2007 - 02:48 AM



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'berto wrote:
Great list, Viktor! I'll add:

Quote:
Everett George Klippert (1926-1996) was the last person in Canada to be arrested, charged, prosecuted, convicted, and imprisoned for homosexuality before its legalization in 1969; the reforms which led to Canadian legalization of homosexuality were a direct result of the Klippert case.

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Feral
Post subject: RE: LGBT history month in UK shows depressing statistic  PostPosted: Mar 18, 2007 - 02:48 AM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 1754

vanrozenheim wrote:
Feral wrote:
Since Gay History Month does start the day after tomorrow, perhaps we should do ourselves the favor of coming up with a more realistic top-50 list... you know, one that actually has some relevance to Gay History Month, with gay people on it.


Most certainly we should! Smile Just a few who first come to my mind, for the modern history and without any particular order:

    Karl Heinrich ULRICHS (1825 - 1895), the first ever gay man to speak out publicly for civil rights of gay people;
    Harvey MILK (1930 - 1978), the first ever openly gay US-politician elected to a public office;
    Oscar WILDE (1854 - 1900), poet & playwright;
    Harry HAY (1912 - 2002), co-founder of the Mattachine Society and of Radical Faeries;
    Dr. Magnus HIRSCHFELD (1868 - 1935), physician, sexologist, and gay rights advocate.
    Edward CARPENTER (1844 - 1929), poet and early gay rights activist;
    Adolf BRAND (1874-1945) writer, publisher of the magazine "Der Eigene";
    Larry KRAMER (1935 - living), author and gay rights activist;
    Peter TATCHELL (1952 - living), gay rights campaigner, spokesman of Outrage!;
    Dr. Franklin E. KAMENY (1925 - living), gay rights activist;
    Bayard RUSTIN (1912 - 1987), civil rights activist;
    Sir Ian MCKELLEN (1939 - living), actor;
    Manfred BRUNS (1934 - living), lawyer and gay rights activist;
    Rosa VON PRAUNHEIM (1942 - living) film director and gay rights activist;
    Alan TURING (1912 - 1954) mathematician, logician, and cryptographer;
    Peter TCHAIKOVSKY (1840 - 1893), composer;
    Pierre SEEL (1923 - 2005), former KZ prisoner, gay activist;
    Theodor WIDDIG (uncertain, ca. 1870 - ca. 1921+), cobbler in Cologne, early-day gay activist from the working class;
    John Henry Mackay (1864 - 1933), writer;
    Yukio MISHIMA (1925 -1970), writer;
    Fyodor SOLOGUB (1863 - 1927), writer;
    Craig SCHOONMAKER (?? - living), a gay rights activist, editor of HI! and co-founder of the "Expansionist Party of the United States";
    Volker BECK (1960 - living), politician;
    Klaus WOWEREIT (1953 - living), politician, mayor of Berlin (Germany);
    Bertrand DELANOE (1950 - living) - politician, mayor of Paris;
    Paul-Marie VERLAINE (1844 - 1896), poet;
    Arthur RIMBAUD (1754 - 1891), poet;
    Christopher ISHERWOOD (1904 - 1986), writer;
    Michael DENNENY (?? - living), writer and editor;
    Nokolai ALEXEJEV (?? - living), gay rights activist;
    Fannyann EDDY (1974 - 2004), lesbian activist in Sierra Leone;
    Brian Williamson (?? - 2004), gay rights aktivist in Jamaica.


There are more names to remember, the above was just my personal spontaneous list, with slight drive to Germany, USA, and Russia. Some more suggestions?

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Feral
Post subject: RE: LGBT history month in UK shows depressing statistic  PostPosted: Mar 18, 2007 - 02:48 AM



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Posts: 1754

Feral wrote:
Quote:
How can you be proud of how far we have come if you don't know how we got there?


How far is it that we have come? On this score very little movement has been made at all. L. Craig Schoonmaker had this to say back in 2001. He's entirely right.

Quote:
The "gay" world today is in fact overwhelmingly, oppressively STRAIGHT. It is not so much "gay" as "stray", STRaight in form and substance, peopled by "gAYs" who aren't nearly so homosexual as they need to be, because their surroundings endlessly perpetuate straight ways of thinking and behaving.

Much has changed since 1965, not all of it for the better. Public "tolerance" of homosexuality is much greater, tho active, aggressive intolerance prevails in some areas of society, such as the military. But the tradeoff is that gay men must now present themselves as essentially straight — heterosexual in all ways except as to whom they actually have sex with.

We must immerse ourselves in straight culture, accept that heterosexuality must prevail everywhere, even in gay bars, and pretend to love women except in bed.

In the typical gay bar, not one minute of gay men's music is ever heard. Indeed, between 70% and 95% of all the music played in "gay" bars is of women's voices singing — or screaming — heterosexual lyrics. Never do men sing romantically of men. Worse, these singing/screaming women are often shown on TV screens, bumping and grinding suggestively, filling an ostensibly "gay" space with disgusting heterosexual images one's eye is constantly drawn to. Elsewhere in the same "gay" bar, there will be a regular TV turned to one or another of the many heterosexual TV stations of the general community — as tho we don't have TV at home, so need to watch straight TV in gay bars. I don't know about you, but I have four TVs and four VCRs at home. If I wanted to watch straight TV, I wouldn't go to a gay bar to do so.


Be glad that there were at least "nine gay men on the list, either as individuals or as members of a band." I'm frankly surprised that there are any gays on that list.

Since Gay History Month does start the day after tomorrow, perhaps we should do ourselves the favor of coming up with a more realistic top-50 list... you know, one that actually has some relevance to Gay History Month, with gay people on it.

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Feral
Post subject: LGBT history month in UK shows depressing statistic  PostPosted: Mar 18, 2007 - 02:47 AM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 1754

'berto wrote:
And it's got nothing to do with how nasty straights are to us, either...

Quote:
A recent poll of over 5,000 gay people found that Kylie Minogue is their goddess, and that the gay community seems to worship straight women who can hold a tune more than the real heroes that have made their lives better.

Guess where the first homosexual on the list appeared? 19th place. There were no lesbians on the list. That means only 18% of "gay icons" are in fact gay. A depressing statistic.

A person ignorant of their own history cannot really know themselves. How can you be proud of how far we have come if you don't know how we got there?

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