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Kyleovision
Post subject: Army Boss Calls Gays 'Immoral'; Retracts It  PostPosted: Mar 13, 2007 - 10:40 PM



Joined: Feb 22, 2007
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... and in less than 24 hours, too:

Quote:
General Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, expressed his view about homosexuality during a newspaper interview.

"I believe that homosexual acts between individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," he said.

"I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way."

[...]

General Pace has issued a statement expressing his regret about the remarks, saying he should not have elaborated on his personal, moral views.

"I should have focused more on my support of the policy and less on my personal moral views," he said.


Something is definitely up. Since when do Army guys back off that fast?

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 13, 2007 - 11:17 PM



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Quote:
Since when do Army guys back off that fast?


You mean American Army guys? Well, there *were* a few incidents during the War of 1812... Wink Razz

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 13, 2007 - 11:45 PM



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By the way, am I a bad guy for thinking that if queers can't serve in the US armed forces, "so what"?

Why should any of us serve and put our lives on the line for a country that won't recognize our civil rights?

I say "fuck 'em".

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 14, 2007 - 01:27 AM



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'berto wrote:
By the way, am I a bad guy for thinking that if queers can't serve in the US armed forces, "so what"?

Why should any of us serve and put our lives on the line for a country that won't recognize our civil rights?

I say "fuck 'em".


Simple questions... In my view the short answers are 'no' and 'we should not.'

The longer versions are tiresome. There is, though, a difference between what one has the right to do and what one ought to do.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 14, 2007 - 03:38 AM



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Quote:
Since when do Army guys back off that fast?


As a rule, when they are ordered to... though even this is not a sure thing. It is a peculiar turn of events.

His alleged expression of "regret" (I put 'regret' in quotes because I have yet to come upon a direct quote from the general employing that word at all) is as close to an apology as you can get. I prefer real apologies -- statements of exculpatory explanation, but I rarely see them in print and almost never hear them. Instead it has become customary to offer up some version of the word "sorry" (which 'regret' most certainly is).

No, he should not have voiced his personal opinions on this matter.

Who I'd prefer a real apology from is Nancy Pelosi.

Quote:
I think the military should carefully consider changing the policy.


This is the Speaker of the House here. Can she possibly be unaware that the policy is just the Pentagon's implimentation of federal law? Can it have escaped her notice that while the Pentagon is duty-bound to enforce it, they are quite powerless to change it? That would be the task of Congress -- the miscreants who installed the policy in the first place.

Immediate support of Representative Meehan's bill to repeal the policy (HR 1246) would be an excellent first step toward that apology, since I note that her name does not appear among the bill's 113 co-sponsors.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 14, 2007 - 04:42 AM



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The General's statement as published by the DoD:

Quote:
A Statement From Gen. Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

“Yesterday, during a wide ranging interview with the Chicago Tribune Editorial Board, I was asked if I think the current policy as codified in U.S. Code, generally referred to as “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell,” should still hold.

“People have a wide range of opinions on this sensitive subject. The important thing to remember is that we have a policy in effect, and the Department of Defense has a statutory responsibility to implement that policy.

“I made two points in support of the policy during the interview. One, “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” allows individuals to serve this nation; and two, it does not make a judgment about the morality of individual acts.

“In expressing my support for the current policy, I also offered some personal opinions about moral conduct.

“I should have focused more on my support of the policy and less on my personal moral views.”


It is a statement of what he should have done, and an accurate one. There is no reason to characterize this as a statement of "regret" as the press has done.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 14, 2007 - 10:14 AM



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I wonder if, after DADT is finally repealed -- provided that Ms. Pelosi ever figures out that it is HER responsibility to make sure this happens -- the fallback position will be "segregated units", like the US Department of Defense set up for the "coloured soldiers"? It would not surprise me in the slightest. I wouldn't expect such a gambit to actually succeed in the long run, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they tried it.

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Kyleovision
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 14, 2007 - 04:39 PM



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Romney Doublespeak on the issue:

Quote:
"I think [Pace] was wise to correct his comment and to suggest that was an inappropriate point to make," said Romney.

[...]

"I believe the current policy [of DADT] has proven to be effective. And I would not propose a change in the current policy at this time. We're in the middle of a conflict and the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy which I didn't think made a lot of sense of when I first heard about it has obviously served us well."

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 14, 2007 - 05:27 PM



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Reminds me of John Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it."

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 14, 2007 - 08:33 PM



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'berto wrote:
I wonder if ... the fallback position will be "segregated units"?


It would not be surprising, but I think it unlikely. The military's earlier experience with segregation was expensive and the practice was ended in part as a cost-cutting measure. If you think the military sputters about allowing those 'mos in now, think of how they shall squeal when they have them and must spend more money than usual for the privilege.

Separation is not inherently bad. The French are quite segregated from the Germans and this has been working well for them of late. The Canadians are segregated from the Americans and seem to be well-pleased by the arrangement, if a little unhappy with the lack of even clearer distinctions. Are the French unequal to the Germans for there being a border between them? Are Americans being discriminated against because they may not benefit from Canada's health system solely because of where they happen to live?

That said, I know of know other country that troubles itself to separate their homosexual soldiers from their heterosexual soldiers. It would be quite novel for the US military to do so.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 15, 2007 - 06:18 AM



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There is, of course, the veritable daisy-chain of political candidates to weigh in on it (if only because reporters ask them). Pam's House Blend has the Democrats' big three.

Clinton:

Quote:
An ABC reporter asked her a direct question about whether homosexuality was immoral, and the wheels spun and this came out.

Quote:
"Well, I am going to leave that to others to conclude."


Hardly a statement of support for a community that she's trying to squeeze cash out of on the DL.

This shouldn't have been a hard answer to offer up, given she's for the repeal of DADT, but there you have it. Her inability to answer the question with a flat out "no" to ABC resulted in underlings scrambling to clarify the message.


It is alleged that the senator "obviously" disagrees with Pace's statement. When you can't answer a 'yes' or 'no' question with a 'yes' or a 'no' there is nothing whatsoever "obvious" about your views.

Obama:

Quote:
When asked the same question about homosexuality and immorality, suddenly the smooth-talking, crowd-pleasing Obama caught a bad case of the sHillaries when talking to Newsday:

On Wednesday, Newsday repeatedly asked Obama if same-sex relationships were immoral.

Quote:
"I think traditionally the Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman has restricted his public comments to military matters," said Obama, leaving Capitol Hill. "That's probably a good tradition to follow."


As with the first senator, the second senator is alleged to "disagree" with Pace.

Edwards:

Quote:
At least John Edwards had the cojones to directly answer the question on the first try when Wolf Blitzer asked him about it on The Situation Room:

Quote:
BLITZER: Let's talk about General Peter Pace, the chairman of the joint chiefs. He suggested today, his own personal opinion, homosexuality, he said, was immoral. As a result, don't change the don't ask, don't tell policy.

First of all, in your opinion, is homosexuality immoral?

EDWARDS: I don't -- don't share that view. And I would go -- go further than that, Wolf. I think the don't ask, don't tell is not working. And as president of the United States I would change that policy.


Leaving aside all the "crossing the bridge" crap, it's a more or less direct answer to a direct question with no allegations from staffers involved.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 15, 2007 - 09:32 AM



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Maybe The Hillbilly will actually Cross A Bridge before '08...? I ain't holding my breath, though.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 15, 2007 - 10:28 AM



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His record on answering questions is quite good. Ask the man a question and he seems to just answer the damn thing. This is a virtue -- one that his competitors seem to lack. His answers are another matter.

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Kyleovision
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 15, 2007 - 07:01 PM



Joined: Feb 22, 2007
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I Voted For DADT and I Was Wrong

by [former Senator] Alan K. Simpson


Quote:
As a lifelong Republican who served in the Army in Germany, I believe it is critical that we review -- and overturn -- the ban on gay service in the military. I voted for "don't ask, don't tell." But much has changed since 1993.

[...]

In today's perilous global security situation, the real question is whether allowing homosexuals to serve openly would enhance or degrade our readiness. The best way to answer this is to reconsider the original points of opposition to open service.

[...]

...[T]here are not enough troops to perform the required mission. The Army is "about broken," in the words of Colin Powell.

[...]

Since 2005, more than 800 personnel have been discharged from "critical fields" -- jobs considered essential but difficult in terms of training or retraining, such as linguists, medical personnel and combat engineers.

[...]
Since 1993, I have had the rich satisfaction of knowing and working with many openly gay and lesbian Americans, and I have come to realize that "gay" is an artificial category when it comes to measuring a man or woman's on-the-job performance or commitment to shared goals.

It says little about the person.

Our differences and prejudices pale next to our historic challenge.

[...]

Let us end "don't ask, don't tell." This policy has become a serious detriment to the readiness of America's forces as they attempt to accomplish what is arguably the most challenging mission in our long and cherished history.


In other words, now they need us, so everything is suddenly a-okay. Talk about damning with faint praise: not one word about how the policy is, and has been, wrong-headed. Not one word about discrimination, about oppresing a People who have done nothing to deserve it. Not one word about the moral implicaitons of what has gone on in the military for 225 years. How about something so tiny as a 'sorry, don't know what the heck we were thinking'? Nothing.

Wow, really makes me want to enlist. How about you?

Mr. Simpson, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 15, 2007 - 07:51 PM



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Kyleovision wrote:
In other words, now they need us, so everything is suddenly a-okay.


I am always perplexed when this particular argument is put forward. It comes up in the debate on blood donations as well.

Where do people get the idea that straight people "need" us for much of anything? Yes, the availability of blood for transfusions is a matter of concern -- are there so many homos being unjustly kept out of the pool of blood donors that changing the policy will affect the availability of blood? Yes, the deployment strategies of the US military have reached a point where the 'supply' of recruits has become an issue -- are there so many homos scrambling to join the military that removing the ban, even replacing it with positive recruitment programs, will affect the number of military personnel in a strategically meaningful way?

I think not.

Equality for all citizens ought to mean for ALL citizens, not just the ones you don't find "icky." It's the right thing to do. That so many countries can't manage to do it is a shameful blot on their national character. Fantasies about what benefits will accrue as a reward for refraining from evil are pointless.

I note that Mr. Simpson, while awash in fantasies, never once says the ban is wrong. The closest he comes to that is claiming that "gay" is an "artificial category." I, at least, don't find that its "artificial" at all. Gay people are not straight people. If we were straight people, we'd call ourselves straight people. We don't. As categories go, it's a real enough one. It's just not a relevant one.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 15, 2007 - 10:08 PM



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John Aravosis says:

Quote:
I hear that the gay civil rights group the Human Rights Campaign had a come-to-Jesus (come-to-Mary?) chat with the Clinton and Obama campaigns this morning over the candidates' seeming inability to give a straight answer yesterday to the question of whether they think homosexuality is immoral.

...

HRC reportedly told both campaigns that they were not happy, and that the campaigns' various and ever-changing answers to the question were evasive and unacceptable, and that both needed to issue forceful and unequivocal statements saying that they don't think homosexuality is immoral.


Oh yeah? If true, that would be novel... and a welcome shift.

As it happens--

Says Clinton (on Bloomberg News):

Quote:
I do not think homosexuality is immoral.


AmericaBlog is reporting that Obama has said as much to the New York Times.

No one else seems to be reporting the same though, and Aravosis provided no link.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 04:31 AM



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American Gay Group ACT UP Resurrected as General Pace Targeted in New York

Quote:
NEW YORK, March 15, 2007 – About 250 people picketed the Armed Forces Recruiting Station in Manhattan this afternoon in a demonstration that is being seen as the likely resurrection of ACT UP.

...

Several well-known individuals participated in or attended the Pace protest, including Kramer, former New Jersey Gov. James McGreevey, author and radio host Michelangelo Signorile, columnist Michael Musto, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Executive Director Matt Foreman, longtime activist and TV host Ann Northrop and blogger Joe.My.God.

Photographer Andrés Duque said Foreman and Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum were arrested for obstructing traffic and “their rainbow flag was taken into custody.”

...

Today, what apparently is being called ACT UP ARMY had announced several more actions in New York City, including one targeting a live airing of Garrison Keillor’s Prairie Home Companion and a large demonstration in favor of universal health care.


Foreman from NGLTF, they say? Why am I not surprised? The game is played by those who show up on the court.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 06:42 AM



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Yaaaay!!! I'm *glad* to see this. Next, maybe they can start throwing fake blood on the exteriors of the diplomatic missions/embassies belonging to Iran, Nigeria, Jamaica, Saudi Arabia, Poland, Latvia, Iraq.... not to mention state houses in Utah, Kansas, Virginia, Alaska....

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Kyleovision
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 07:19 AM



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Is it at all possible that Foreman is considering taking NGLTF to the streets? 'Task Force' works with 'Gay Army' pretty handily.

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Kyleovision
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 09:50 AM



Joined: Feb 22, 2007
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Leo Pitts rips into 'phobes.

And it's even more fun, because whover wrote the headline obviously didn't read the piece.

Picture all the bigots settling in to read a nice anti-gay rant, then scratching their heads and thinking, 'wait, this guy doesn't seem to agree with me at all, after all.'

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