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berto
Post subject: "Stop calling me a 'homosexual' "  PostPosted: Jul 05, 2007 - 10:42 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Location: Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia, Canada
John Aravosis ain't crazy about the word...

Quote:
The Washington Post published a pro-gay editorial today about marriage. And that’s great. But they called us “homosexuals” throughout the piece, and that’s not great. It’s degrading and offensive and archaic.

I’ve written about this before, and some have disagreed. But I’d argue that those who disagree don’t understand the nuance of language or of this particular phrase. Ask any gay person, regardless of whether they agree or disagree that the word “homosexual” is archaic and offensive, whether they use the term “gay” or “homosexual” to described themselves. I.e., “I’m gay” or “I’m a homosexual.” Just ask them. Unless they’re living under a rock, gay people rarely if ever use the word homosexual. (My gay-friendly straight friends, however, use the term all the time. In the same way that I still hear friends use the word “oriental.”)

Why? First, because it’s become archaic. Usage changes, and just as Negro and colored changed to black and African-American, just as oriental gave way to Asian, homosexual has become gay. But second, and more importantly, the word homosexual is offensive in the same manner as negro and oriental. Sometimes archaic words sting. In the case of homosexual, I think the main problem is three-fold. First, the clinical nature of the term. It’s a scientific word that mildly dehumanizes gay people by suggesting that they have a medical or psychological condition. Second, the words “homo” and “sex.” Both words connote something negative, or at least something that shouldn’t be spoken out loud, to a lot of Americans. Third, and most importantly, homosexual is the word the religious right uses expressly and uniquely in an effort to dehumanize gays. Anti-gay religious right activists have said publicly that they will not use the word “gay” - rather, they insist on using “homosexual.” Why? Because for some reason or another they figure that the word homosexual helps their cause. And while I don’t agree with the religious right on many things, their ability to gay-bash swiftly and effectively is unqestioned. If they think the word gay helps us and the word homosexual hurts us, who am I to argue?

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vanrozenheim
Post subject: RE: "Stop calling me a  PostPosted: Jul 05, 2007 - 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Second, the words “homo” and “sex.” Both words connote something negative, or at least something that shouldn't be spoken out loud, to a lot of Americans.


Well, then America has a serious problem... While "homosexual" isn't as such offensive, one is of course encouraged to use correct names for each sort of people.

A homosexual is a different species than a Gay, and something very different from an "MSM". Seame-sexers with identity are Gays, those without identity are homosexuals; and those with straight identity but sleeping with men are "MSM's".

The homophobes use the word "homosexual" not because it is offensive, but because they want to destroy our identity. That's why they speak of "homosexual lifestyle" or "homosexual behaviour" just as if it were a bad habit. It's easier to to defeat a people by destroying its identity first, so each individual feels isolated and besieged.

Didn't we already had this debate on another place, including the proper use of "faggot" in a political discussion?
 
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Feral
Post subject: RE: "Stop calling me a  PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 05:11 AM



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Quote:
Didn't we already had this debate on another place, including the proper use of "faggot" in a political discussion?


We did. I think it's lurking in the archives somewhere. If I come upon it, I'll put a link here.

As for Mr. Aravosis -- people probably should stop calling him a homosexual. There are so many more descriptive terms.

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Tehanu
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 05:46 AM



Joined: Mar 25, 2007
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Hey all!

Over on enMasse 'berto and I started a discussion about this.

So I'm curious about people's thoughts about the terms LGBT vs. homosexual from the perspective of identity, or political awareness, or to what extent someone's still in the closet. I'm not crazy about the term "homosexual," myself.

And then there's using the term "gay" ... it can feel exclusionary of those of us who are neither male, nor exclusively attracted to the same sex.

Largely semantics, probably, though.
 
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berto
Post subject: Re: RE: "Stop calling me a  PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 05:53 AM



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To Tehanu --

Feral wrote:
Quote:
Didn't we already had this debate on another place, including the proper use of "faggot" in a political discussion?


We did. I think it's lurking in the archives somewhere. If I come upon it, I'll put a link here.


Wait till Fer finds a link to that earlier discussion; we've already hashed this out once. Read that, and then maybe we can pick up wherever it left off...

As an aside, regarding "the proper use of "faggot" in a political discussion"... someone hollered "faggot" at me yesterday on the street -- ooo! How "big city" of them! -- I don't think they meant it as a compliment. Neither do I on the few occasions that I use it. And I DO use it.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 06:07 AM



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On the word 'homosexual' -- love it... use it quite often. It's much too long though. I prefer to use the contraction 'mo. It's a dandy adjective and a workable noun. And best of all, you pretty much know exactly who's under discussion.

There is, however, a particular pronunciation of the word 'homosexual' that is patently offensive. I find it's quite impossible for me to describe it in print. After all, the accent is supposed to be on the third syllable. The deceased Mr. Falwell was quite good at this specific pronunciation. The not-dead-yet Mr. Swaggart is too, as I recall.

LGBT I don't much like, as I've had occasion to say in the past. I find that I am neither Lesbian nor bisexual nor transgendered. I'm Gay. My Lesbian friends aren't Gay -- they're Lesbians (and damn happy that way). Far too often, people blindly use the term 'LGBT' (or the ever-popular Americanism 'GLBT') when they are not at all talking about Lesbians, Gays, bisexuals, or transgendered.

Vicky did suggest a perfectly good acronym to resuscitate the usefulness of 'GLBT,' but I'm just not warming to it.

'Gay' is difficult, because it's pretty much become a euphemism for homosexual (just ask that AmericaBlog guy). Once upon a time, it referred not to homosexuals, but to homosexuals who recognized their homosexuality as a core element of their being and identity. You see -- this usage of the word would, I dare say, be unfamiliar to the likes of the AmericaBlog guy -- it doesn't fit in with the Democratic Party line. As fond as I am of the older usage, continuing to use it at this point is senseless -- the entire point of language is to be understood, and if you will be perpetually misunderstood because you are petulantly using an out-of-date definition for a word, then you really must use your words more carefully.

Now, yes... I will cop to being exclusionary when I use the word 'gay' in it's common vernacular sense. The word 'dog' excludes cats. I don't see a problem here. I would prefer to use the word 'Lesbian' to describe Lesbians -- though then I fall head-first into the trap of speaking for Lesbians, and I'm just not any good at that. It's something I try to avoid -- the other letters in the "alphabet soup" are quite capable of speaking with authority for themselves.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 06:32 AM



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Here we go -- "That Word." I think there may be a few more related threads lying about.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 06:44 AM



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Hmmm... yes, I think maybe there are. Maybe some left behind on the Old Site?

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 06:53 AM



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Maybe. Feel free to root and forage. Old words are like pepper... they will do when you have nothing else, but really, you haven't eaten until you've had fresh pepper.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 07:13 AM



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Mr. Aravosis quite rightly points to another blog entry (written quite independently).

Quote:
This issue has broader implications for communications and marketing to our community and points up one of the cardinal sins we often counsel clients on: what to call us.

While it may seem to some marketers that simply acknowledging our existence is enough, how you acknowledge us is at least as important as the fact that you do it. More credibility has been lost than gained by companies that awkwardly reach out to our community with nomenclature, imagery and/or language that betrays their lack of knowledge of who we are. In some cases, this awkwardness probably masks a certain amount of discomfort as well. In all cases, it's important for marketers to understand that there is both an art and science to outreach to our community. The art is capturing our interest in ways that demonstrate you understand our lives and the things that motivate us. The science is using language that demonstrates you value us as people, not just the "other" that you may grudgingly realize you need to reach out to for business reasons.

And that brings us back to "gay" vs. "homosexual." This issue is really just a natural extension of the "f-word" debate that broke out into the open earlier this year with the "Grey's Anatomy" spectacle that we've written about extensively already. There are few hard and fast rules, but there is this: exercise common sense in engaging our community and use terms that both you and your target audience feel are appropriate. If it sounds wrong, it probably is. Asking for professional guidance to figure this out is the best way to know if you've hit - or missed - the mark.


Mr. Finzel is quite right -- from a marketing stand-point. Using the word 'homosexual' is not such a good idea in a whole lot of ways.

Still, I don't find the word inherently offensive at all. This is not to say that it cannot be used in a way that would offend me... oh, it can.





Incidentally, I am quite liking this Out Front Blog. I found this particular post be be of especial interest... Are Canadian and Quebecker homosexual women still living in the closet? (The answer turns out to be 'yes'.)

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Last edited by Feral on Jul 06, 2007 - 04:39 PM; edited 2 times in total
 
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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 07:15 AM



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*sigh*

I am not feeling up to eloquence tonight, I fear. I'm feeling something else. I think I might just go and splurge on a small pack o' brew and see if Rodney wants to come help drink it. (No, I *can't* wait for the weekend, and he IS going back home next week.... Does it make me look louche if I call him first? WTF... I don't care... Very Happy

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 07:27 AM



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Quote:
Does it make me look louche if I call him first?


Nope. But it's kind of gay.

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Kyleovision
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 06, 2007 - 11:36 AM



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Yes, the pronunciation matters. That evangelical "hoh-muh-SEK-shul' is anathema. I mean, can these people ever talk without sneering?

As for the original trigger to this convo-- the WaPo's use of the word-- the AP, NYT and WaPo stylebooks all warn against the use of the 'homosexual' as equivalent to the word 'gay.' In fact, as I recall, all three stylebooks go further and warn against the use of 'homosexual' as a 'style variation.' That is, don't go using 'homosexual' just because you feel as if you're monotonously using the word 'gay' too many times in your story. (The NYT being the latest to join this queer picnic-- they first printed the word 'gay' in our context sometime in the late 1990s, believe it or not.)

So then, it sounds as if Mr. Aravosis is mostly a victim of slipshod copy editing at the Post. Bad copy editing, in this day and age? Who'd a thunk it?

Now, in my newsroom, the rules were a bit different. I did actually allow the use of the word 'homosexual' in adjectival formations when its clinical character modified another clinical or legal word. For example, say one man rapes another. In our copy that is was a 'homosexual rape.' Certainly a better construction than 'gay rape,' I think you'll agree. A better term than 'sodomy,' I think. Should it have just been referred to as 'a rape?' Probably. But, alas, TV news writing done in industrial/semi-rural Michigan targets an ignorant, blue-collar conservative audience. Forget that, and you are lost; so. you do what you can.

Ditto, a health story that speaks of a treatment that helps control the spread of, say, genital herpes. If the treatment has not been tested and shown to be effective in the context of 'homosexual partners,' I'd have us say so, and just that way. Why inject the word 'gay' in story like that? Heck, the other stations aren't even gong to report that bit of info-- not having a gay guy running the show-- so, again, you do what you can for the cause.

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 08, 2007 - 09:22 PM



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Personally, I've never been to fond of the catch-all "LGBTQ" or any of its variants. It implies a misleading assumption...that the people represented by said initials actually see themselves as a monolithic community. The reality is that we don't. Out of political necessity we have banded together and out of social and political ignorance and expediency we've been lumped together. We've been forced to make common cause against common enemies, but we're far from monolithic and, truth be told, often times adversarial to one another.
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 09, 2007 - 02:58 AM



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Rain wrote:
Out of political necessity we have banded together and out of social and political ignorance and expediency we've been lumped together. We've been forced to make common cause against common enemies, but we're far from monolithic and, truth be told, often times adversarial to one another.


Abso-fucking-lutely. I don't know how 'forced' the common cause is, but the acronym best describes a particular political coalition, one that is far more transient than most people care to admit. It forms and re-forms repeatedly, largely because the common enemies are so very common.

Using "LGBTQ" (or any of the innumerable variants of this alphabet soup) as an identifier for a people is just plain weird. People should stop it at once and start saying what they mean instead. While there are inevitably those who will insist that they "identify" with this inherently political acronym, there are always those who take their politics a little too seriously. The occasional common interests expressed by "LGBTQ" diverge more than occasionally. It might be said that the individual letters are more frequently adversaries than allies. More care should probably be taken to limit the viciousness of our moments of opposition -- after all, it makes the re-formation of tactical alliances quite troublesome.

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vanrozenheim
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 04, 2007 - 06:01 AM
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"Straight" men looking for sex with men
Quote:
The men are most often caught "cruising" for sex in public parks and restrooms. Most are between 36 and 56, and a third of them are married and consider themselves straight, according to statistics kept by Salt Lake City.

[..]

A considerable number of the men [..] fit Craig's profile, said therapist Jerry Buie.
"A lot of them are very conservative, very rigid against issues that are gay," Buie said.
Craig has held top Republican positions and has voted against gay rights, including several votes for a federal ban on gay marriage.
"These guys become experts at compartmentalizing their lives," Buie said. " 'What I do at the park does not have any relevance to what I do politically, morally, religiously' " is a common refrain.


Yes-yes, we know the song: "I am not Gay. I have never been Gay." Wax Fruits are not Gay. Wax Fruits they are flavourless - or should we say trite and dismal?
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 04, 2007 - 08:41 AM



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or we could say dismally old-fashioned and just WAAAAAAAY too "seventies."

Does anyone have wax fruits on their tables anymore? I surely hope not. Pitch those tacky painted alabaster ones as well. If you must ornament your tables with food stuffs, make them real food stuffs (and consider eating them).

The same goes for these other 'wax fruits' -- it is passé, dear fellows.




I simply MUST add that I find it bizarre in the extreme that Salt Lake City should keep statistics on this matter. They count them.... really?

Whatever for?

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 04, 2007 - 11:05 AM



Joined: Apr 12, 2007
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Quote:

I simply MUST add that I find it bizarre in the extreme that Salt Lake City should keep statistics on this matter. They count them.... really?

Whatever for?


For all those Mormon missionaries.

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Each of us inevitable; Each of us limitless - each of us with his or her right upon the earth; Each of us allowed the eternal purports of the earth; Each of us here as divinely as any is here. ~ Walt Whitman
 
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