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Feral
14 Post subject: US -- Boy Scouts  PostPosted: Oct 17, 2006 - 03:00 AM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 1754

Supreme Court Refuses Calif. Scout Case

Quote:
(Washington) The Supreme Court on Monday declined to hear an appeal from a Berkeley, California Boy Scouts sailing group that lost free use of a public boat slip because of the Scouts' anti-gay policy.

The court decision allows a ruling by the California Supreme Court upholding Berkeley's decision to stand.


Quote:
The justices ruled Berkeley could demand that a group receiving subsidies renounce a policy of "invidious discrimination."

"We agree with Berkeley and the court of appeal that a government entity may constitutionally require a recipient of funding or subsidy to provide written, unambiguous assurances of compliance with a generally applicable nondiscrimination policy," Justice Kathryn Mickle Werdegar wrote for the court.

City officials told the Sea Scouts that the group could retain its berthing subsidy, valued at about $500 monthly per boat, if it broke ties with the Boy Scouts or disavowed the policy against gays and atheists.

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"If you want the freedom, the abilities, you have to find a way. Just don't be so passive. We are capable of so much more." -- Larry Kramer


Last edited by Feral on Jun 01, 2007 - 01:53 PM; edited 1 time in total
 
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vanrozenheim
Post subject:   PostPosted: Oct 17, 2006 - 12:56 PM
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If courts in Europe only decided to do the same against catholic church... In Germany, churches are not bound by the general legislation concerning the equal opportunity employment etc. This would be fine with me if only the churches would not receive huge fundings from the government for all their kindergarten and schools. Currently, many of these social institutions receive up to 90% of their budget from the government but have full control over the employment policies - which means that divorced women or gays in partnership are instantly dismissed.
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Oct 17, 2006 - 07:01 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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I had not realized that in Europe the Christian churches remained so powerful. An organization, any organization, ought to have the right to determine for itself how it will conduct its affairs. If they wish to discriminate, then let them discriminate. They ought not receive any public money however. Let them spend their own money.

This particular case by itself is not so earth-shattering. The Boy Scouts have already been to the Supreme Court and won their right to discriminate against gays and atheists on the grounds that they are essentially a religious organization. California Supreme Court has determined that, in California at least, the City of Berkeley does not have to give money or services of value to organizations that violate anti-discrimination policies. It takes remarkable mental gymnastics to see any conflict of rights here. If I refuse to eat meat, and you insist upon easting only beef, I am not required to buy you a steak. Certainly you may eat one, and certainly I do not have to provide one.

Sadly, the Supreme Court did not give any comment at all when declining to hear the appeal. Quite often this circumstance means that no question of law is available for them to judge -- whether it is because the case is a settled matter or because the attorneys have not made such a good case to begin with. It might also mean that the court has many cases to decide this term and this one is not sufficiently important at this time to command the justices' attention.

The issue will certainly arise again. The city of Philadelphia at one point in history leased a plot of downtown land to the Boy Scouts for $1.00 -- a symbolic token payment. The land has since vastly increased in value. Also since then, the city has passed ordinances forbidding discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and the Boy Scouts have since won the right (as a religious organization) to discriminate upon the basis of their faith. Naturally the city no longer intends to rent anything to the Boy Scouts for $1.00 under these circumstances, and has instructed the Boy Scouts to either change their ways, leave the property, or pay the market rent for the property. Since as far as I have been able to determine no one has ever enquired into just what the fair rent of this patch of downtown Real Estate would be, I assume that no one intends for this last option to be exercised. The Boy Scouts, of course, feel their rights are being trampled on. They have threatened all manner of court action.

Perhaps the California case will dampen their enthusiasm for litigation, but more likely it will not. The Associated Press reminds us that the Boys Scouts have lost a number of similar cases since their Supreme Court "victory."

Quote:
Two years ago, the court similarly rejected a Boy Scouts appeal of a case from Connecticut, where officials dropped the group from a list of charities that receive donations from state employees through a payroll deduction plan.

And in Philadelphia, the city is threatening to evict a Boy Scout council from the group's publicly owned headquarters or make the group pay rent unless it changes its policy on gays.

On a separate matter, federal judges in two other court cases that are being appealed have ruled that government aid to the group is unconstitutional because the Boy Scouts of America requires members to swear an oath of duty to God.

Despite the string of legal setbacks, lawyers for the Scouts said they believe the Supreme Court ultimately will decide that governments are improperly denying benefits that they make available to similar organizations.


Some legal scholars speculate that the Supreme Court WILL eventually have something to say on this issue, but is waiting for various lower courts to disagree. In my view, that will be a long wait. The Boy Scouts' freedom of speech arguments have been reasonably persuasive -- they may, if they choose, insist upon instilling god-fearing gay-hating values in their members because they are a faith-based organization. The same freedom of speech permits unending pickets of their meetings and functions by opposing parties. Thus far I know of no court that has agreed that a government must subsidise this organization. In many jurisdictions, the Boy Scouts engage in unlawful behavior and the governments of those jurisdictions are duty-bound not to support this behavior with public money.

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vanrozenheim
Post subject:   PostPosted: Oct 18, 2006 - 07:10 PM
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Churches (both the catholic and the evangelic) are still very influential in Europe. Their influence is, however, of more subtle nature than in the US. While in the US it is perfectly normal for a christian fundamentalist to make public scandals and teach hate from the TV screen, it is actually unthinkable here in Europe. This is not because the catholics here were generally of more gentle temper, but they simply must fear criminal persecution if they go too far (at least in the "old Europe").

The problem is that in Europe churches often play the same role that Hizbolla plays in Lebanon - they provide social services such as hospitals, schools, emergency transportation etc. One can't simply close all these institutions without causing greate damage to the social infrastructure. So the governments provide them with money, and in turn one shall expect the churches shall be bound by the general legislation.

In Germany the government goes so far as to collect the "church tax" along with the general income taxes from members of the Evangelic and the Catholic church. This "church tax" is as high as 8-9% from the income tax, and due to German tax legislation, payments to the churches deminish person's income tax duties. The government loses therefore some 3.5 billion Euros per year.

In the year 2004, the churches received from this tax:

Catholic Church: 4.158 billions Euro,
Evangelic Church 3.689 billions Euro,
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Together: 7.847 billions Euro

This is not as high as the yearly US defense spendings, Twisted Evil but still a pretty large sum collected with the state power.
 
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berto
Post subject: Critics protest at annual Boy Scout meeting  PostPosted: May 31, 2007 - 11:24 AM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 1195
Location: Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia, Canada
Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

Quote:
The Boy Scouts of America convened its national annual leadership meeting in Atlanta on Wednesday amid protests over the group's ban on gays and atheists and ongoing complaints about its local council's service to poor and disadvantaged youth.

A few banner- and placard-bearing critics marched outside the Hyatt Regency in downtown Atlanta, where 2,500 volunteer leaders, council chief executive officers, executive board members and other scouting officials are gathered for the three-day conference.

Activities include discussion of the organization's 2006-10 strategic plan, workshops and major speeches by Frank Page, head of the Southern Baptist Convention, and Thomas W. Dortch Jr., chairman emeritus of 100 Black Men of America, which works on quality-of-life issues, particularly with young African-Americans.


Ummm.... this would be the SAME Southern Baptist Convention which is ignoring child-molesters within its ranks?!

Quote:
A victims' advocates group, Survivors' Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), called on Monday for a zero-tolerance policy on sexual abuse within the Southern Baptist church.

Southern Baptist leaders have argued that, due to the lack of a rigid structure within the church, it is impossible to investigate molestation claims across the denomination.

SNAP has suggested the implementation of an independent review board to investigate reports of sexual abuse, but Southern Baptist Convention president Frank Page claims that the SBC does not have the legal authority to do this.

[...]

Christa Brown, who maintains the website Voice to Stop Baptist Predators, feels that the SBC is refusing to see sexual and child abuse as a serious problem. She says on snapnetwork.org: "We are witnesses to truth, and the church needs to confront that truth."

SNAP also feels that the SBC "have shown themselves capable of all manner of cooperative endeavours when they choose", but are deliberately playing down the issue. In the past six months SNAP has received reports of about 40 cases of sexual abuse by Southern Baptist ministers.

Sexual abuse is believed to be rife among the Southern Baptist clergy; according to The Associated Baptist Press , a 2000 report in Texas revealed: "more than 24% of ministers said they had counselled at least one person who had sexual contact with a minister."

[...]

SNAP suspects that many more are too traumatised by their experiences to come forward.

SNAP representative Miguel Prats, 54, was abused by a Catholic priest when he was 18, but did not report the incident until 2001.

Prats told EthicsDaily.com that, although he felt the Catholic church had dealt with sexual abuse poorly, he has received reports that the Southern Baptists have been doing even less to combat the problem.


Hypocritical maggots...

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 01, 2007 - 01:55 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Philadelphia City Council Votes to Terminate Boy Scouts' Rent-Free Deal Due to Sexual Orientation Discrimination

Quote:
(Philadelphia, PA)May 31, 2007 – Philadelphia City Council voted today to terminate the 1928 ordinance granting the Boy Scouts’ Cradle of Liberty Council rent-free use of a building in Philadelphia due to its practice of sexual orientation discrimination. The resolution gave the Boy Scouts the option of changing its practice of excluding gay scouts or leaders, or paying fair-market rent for the use of the building.

Philadelphia City Councilman Darrell Clarke introduced the resolution which passed with only one vote opposing the ordinance’s termination. The resolution was based upon the local Boy Scouts’ implementation of the national organizations’ discriminatory policy prohibiting gay people from participating in scouting.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 01, 2007 - 05:42 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Location: Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia, Canada
From here:

Quote:
The Cradle of Liberty Council adopted a nondiscrimination policy in 2003 but was ordered to revoke it by the National Council, which said local councils had no right to deviate from national rules that bar participation by anyone who is openly gay.


Golly... maybe the poisonous bigots on the National Council will poney up some cash to help pay for the costs that the Philadelphia scout troop would not be facing if it wasn’t for, y’know, the poisonous bigots on the National Council....

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 01, 2007 - 07:04 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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They might could. Wink In this particular case, the downtown building is supplemented by another, larger, suburban property that is not subject to the whims of Philadelphia's government. The council is likely to simply withdraw from the building, though not after spending absurd amounts of money challenging the city's right to do as it pleases with its ordinances and public properties.

I have yet to see any whisper of a suggestion about what this "fair-market rent" would be, should the Scouts elect to pay it. The lack of a price tag would seem to indicate that there is no expectation that paying it is a real option. This is, I think, an error on the part of the city... it gives the clear impression (to me at least) that they are not dealing in good faith.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 31, 2007 - 02:12 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Location: Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia, Canada
The Boy Scouts and "degenerates"

Quote:
The Washington State supreme court has forced the Boy Scouts of America to turn over "ineligible volunteer" files that reveal a sexual abuse problem among Scout leaders that is far greater than the organization previously admitted.

Although justices ruled that the files themselves would not be made public, attorneys said the Boy Scouts "have ejected at least 5,100 adult leaders nationwide for sexual abuse allegations since 1946," according to the Seattle Times.

In the past 15 years, the organization has kicked out leaders for abuse allegations at a rate of one every other day.

[...]

The records they obtained show that, as part of the "ineligible volunteer" files, the organization retained information on 1,000 "degenerates." The Stewarts' attorneys counted 732 "degenerate" files from 1946 to 1971 among the 45 boxes of files ordered disclosed by the BSA.

Lumped together as "degenerates" were both volunteers known to be gay and known to be pedophiles.

Jon Davidson, legal director of Lambda Legal, told Gay.com that the Boy Scouts of America understood that those two groups had little, if anything, to do with each other.

"Even the organization's literature says it's a myth that gay men are more likely to engage in sexual abuse than straight men," Davidson said. "They never have asserted that (potential pedophilia) is a reason to exclude gay men from the Scouts. They simply insist that gay men don't make good role models."

[...]

Despite the new safeguards, the secrecy in the 97-year-old organization closely mirrors the stonewalling of the Roman Catholic Church, according to David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests.

"In many institutions, especially those with rigid, clear lines of authority, there is a temptation to obsess over public image and perceived short-term damage from scandal and litigation rather than focusing on real long-term solutions, and the most glaring example of that is the Catholic Church," Clohessy told Gay.com.

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Rain
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 31, 2007 - 02:16 PM



Joined: Apr 12, 2007
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Location: NYC
Quote:
The Washington State supreme court has forced the Boy Scouts of America to turn over "ineligible volunteer" files that reveal a sexual abuse problem among Scout leaders that is far greater than the organization previously admitted.


NO?!!! For REAL?!!! Get outta heah!!!!!!

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Each of us inevitable; Each of us limitless - each of us with his or her right upon the earth; Each of us allowed the eternal purports of the earth; Each of us here as divinely as any is here. ~ Walt Whitman
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 31, 2007 - 06:30 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Quote:
the secrecy in the 97-year-old organization closely mirrors the stonewalling of the Roman Catholic Church


Hmmm... any bets that the outcome of future litigation will follow the pattern?

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