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berto
Post subject: Straight? Then stay away from Peel Hotel  PostPosted: May 28, 2007 - 05:11 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Location: Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia, Canada
Quote:
(Sydney) An Australian hotel favoured by gays has won the right to refuse entry to heterosexuals, a report said on Monday. The management of the Peel Hotel in Melbourne said they had applied for and won exemption from the Equal Opportunity Act to prevent insults and abuse being directed at their mainly gay patrons.

In particular, the hotel raised concerns about gatherings of large groups of heterosexual men and of groups of women out for so-called “hen nights”, said the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.


It didn’t take long before:

Hotel reports homophobic backlash to ruling on patrons

Quote:
The owner of the Peel Hotel in Melbourne says there has already been a backlash after the pub won the right to turn away heterosexual patrons.

[...]

Owner Tom McFeely says there has been an increase in abusive homophobic phone calls to the Collingwood hotel since the decision became public. “The phone honestly hasn’t stopped ringing and that’s sad but it also in my head demonstrates the need for this type of thing, because there is still quite a bit of homophobia within the general community,” he said.

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Feral
Post subject: RE: Straight? Then stay away from Peel Hotel  PostPosted: May 28, 2007 - 11:07 PM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Quote:
it ... demonstrates the need for this type of thing, because there is still quite a bit of homophobia within the general community


Huh. You don't say.

I could have told him that 30 years ago (and would have) and nothing whatsoever has changed in that regard in the interim. There is a positive need for "gay space" -- a requirement, even.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 28, 2007 - 11:44 PM



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A slightly more detailed piece via AFP reveals that it's not just certain ("inappropriate-behaving") straights who are barred, it's women, too:

Quote:
An Australian hotel popular with gay men has won the right to refuse entry to heterosexuals and lesbians, officials and the owner said Monday.

[...]

"The hotel predominantly markets itself towards homosexual males, towards gay men and we want to protect the integrity of the venue as well as continue to make the men feel comfortable," McFeely said. "When large numbers of heterosexuals or even lesbians are in the hotel that changes the atmosphere and many gay men can feel uncomfortable."

[...]

Helen Szoke, the chief executive of the Victoria state government's Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission, said the Peel Hotel's gay clientele had experienced harassment, hostility and violence. "(They) also have felt as though they've been like a zoo exhibit with big groups of women on hens' parties coming to the club," she said.

McFeely said his aim was not to ban all straight patrons and lesbians but to limit their numbers so gay men could freely express their sexuality. He said he expected a backlash from other patrons, but added: "I'm not worried about it because to be frank I don't really care what heterosexuals or lesbians think. "My main motivation is to protect my gay male customers and I realise heterosexuals and lesbians may be upset. but I don't care about that.

[...]

"With the heterosexual males, if they identify themselves as that at the door, or indeed we question their behaviour in the venue and if they come across as being heterosexual, then we will simply ask them to leave if the behaviour is unappropriate."

Human rights group Liberty Victoria supported the decision, vice-president Michael Pearce said. "There are numerous places where heterosexual people can go," he said. "I think what (the tribunal) has said is that there aren't that many places where gay people can go and meet without the risk of being harassed or vilified, and that they are entitled to have their own spaces to do that in."


I'm not so sure that I'm supportive of a blanket ban on women (!!) but then I've never had any particular problems with lesbians... But as for Doug's concern (expressed elsewhere:

Quote:
What's the point of even having anti-discrimination laws if businesses can just opt out of them?


I note that:

Quote:
The Peel Hotel in Melbourne won an exemption from the Equal Opportunity Act to prevent insults and abuse directed toward gays in its bars and nightclubs, owner Tom McFeely told AFP.


I somehow doubt there are going to be vast numbers of straights who will be willing to say they were being harrassed, abused and intimidated by groups of gay men. Just a hunch, mind you...

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 29, 2007 - 12:49 AM



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Yes. Well. Straight people would find little that was either lawful or reasonable to amuse themselves with at a Gay night club. They are well served by pursuing their own interests in their own venues. I suspect Melbourne has a whole lot of them.

There really is no point to straight tourists in gay nightclubs. They interfere with the hunting.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 29, 2007 - 11:35 AM



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More details from The Scotsman:

Quote:
Tom McFeely, the hotel’s owner, who emigrated to Australia from Scotland 17 years ago because of homophobia, said the ruling was necessary to provide gay men with a non-threatening atmosphere. “We’ve always welcomed everyone at the Peel,” he said. “But when it got to the stage where a gay person could feel intimidated or unsafe at a gay venue, that’s when I felt I had to take action. If I can limit the number of heterosexuals entering the Peel, then that helps me keep the safe balance.”

Mr McFeely said he was not banning all straight people but wanted to have legal backing when he told unwelcome groups or individuals they should leave. He said women on hen nights, who had a tendency to “have a giggle at the poofs”, and men on stag nights, who could make the atmosphere threatening, were among the problems customers faced. He also wants the right to exclude lesbians, because the hotel was set up as a male venue.

Mr McFeely said lesbians had undressed in front of each other in the past, and gay male customers had complained that they had felt uncomfortable.

[...]

Ten years ago, a heterosexual couple complained to equal opportunities chiefs that they were discriminated against at the Peel, when they were asked to leave for what Mr McFeely described as “almost having sex”. But he said that case had not influenced his decision to seek the latest ruling.

[...]

Helen Szoke, the head of the commission, said the hotel’s gay clientele had experienced harassment and violence. “[They] have felt as though they’ve been like a zoo exhibit,” she said.

[...]

At the Vine, a mainstream pub on the same street as the Peel Hotel, Jackie Milesi, the landlady, backed Mr McFeely’s stand. “A lot of people go into his venue and create problems, and I don’t think it’s right,” she said. “The gay people come to our place for lunch and we’re very comfortable with that. They have a right to their privacy.”


It is also worth noting that I have read in a couple of articles that the Peel “Hotel” does not rent accomodations -- it is strictly a nightclub, regardless of its name. (Something that Feral has also pointed out to me.) Smile

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vanrozenheim
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 29, 2007 - 04:18 PM
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The difference is, of course, in numbers: even if all gay businesses would evict straight customers, the lifes of these straight customers wouldn't be much hampered. If in turn, all straight businesses would deny service to gay customers, these gay customers would have severe difficulties to access any goods and services at all. In real life, prohibition of discrimination towards a (90-95%) majority would have the simple effect that the minoritiy would have no safe place at all -- the opposite of what was intended by the law.

The same is with the job discrimination. If only 5% of straight employers actually do discriminate against gay people, it would require the entirety of gay employers to remedy the negative effects on gay folks. Now, does anybody here believe that it's only 5% straights who actually do discriminate against gay job-seekers? I tell you, we must discriminate to achieve at least some degree of factual justice to our people.
 
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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 30, 2007 - 01:45 AM



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I would agree with you, except on the use of the word 'discriminate.' While laws prohibiting discrimination in the greater society are generally beneficial, the peculiar idea that these laws must, therefor, wipe out all distinctions of identity is misguided (and foolish). A shelter for battered women serves a specific need and does not "discriminate" against battered men in not providing services for them. (It would be the absence of a men's shelter, not the existence of a women's shelter, that is inappropriate in this case.) A program seeking to provide employment opportunities for Blacks or First Nations peoples does not discriminate against whites seeking employment: the whites just have no legitimate use for this particular service. Specific communities quite often have individual needs that ought to be addressed by government. Even more frequently they have needs in common with just about everyone else, but those needs have to be addressed in a specific manner in order to be fulfilled reasonably. That a vegetarian might not be fed meat and a Muslim might not be fed pork would not impinge in any way upon anyone's presumptive right to be fed.

In the case of the Peel Hotel... it is not a hotel. It's a night club... a night club for gay men and a place where gay men do a great many of those things that make them 'gay'. It is not a place where straight people would be comfortable. It is not a place where they would be welcome. It's just the sort of place where it would be difficult indeed for the straight visitors to behave themselves in even a remotely acceptable manner. After all... just what would straight people know about the social customs and mores in a gay night club and just where am I to suppose they learned them? Given that the Peel is in Melbourne, even I would have to make inquiries beforehand. It just would not do to assume that 'upstairs at the Peel' was the southern hemisphere version of 'the backroom at the Mineshaft.' It is, after all, just possible that Australians manage their affairs somewhat differently than East Coast USians. I think it unlikely, but not so unlikely that I would not ask.

There just isn't any polite purpose for straight people to be trespassing on what is essentially a hunting-ground. If politeness does not keep them away then prohibitions must eventually come into play. I hasten to add that there is similarly no polite purpose for a Gay man to be prowling straight night clubs -- it interferes with perfectly acceptable and really quite important activities on the part of the straight people. Not, of course, that the two situations are at all similar. My straight friends assure me that while there may be night clubs for heterosexuals along the lines of a gay night club, none of them have ever encountered one, at least not in the US. Then again, perhaps my straight friends should get out more.

It is in these so-called 'public' accommodations tailored to the uses of a particular community that notions of "discrimination" are especially out of place. Venues for the acquisition of sex partners (or, more importantly, the illusion that one might acquire a sex partner, whether that is remotely possible or not) are among the most culturally divergent places imaginable, next to the family dinner table. It is not appropriate to disrupt them and it just isn't possible to refrain from being at least slightly disruptive by your mere presence if you are not familiar with the language and expectations of such places.

Of course, the story about the Peel was referring to much more blatant and deliberate disruption than I am.

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 30, 2007 - 11:46 PM



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Montreal gay bar under fire for barring women

Quote:
A gay bar promoted as a "truly manly meat market'' is facing a human rights complaint for barring women from discovering the pleasures inside the establishment.

Audrey Vachon, a Quebec college student, launched the discrimination complaint against the bar Le Stud, described in promotional material as a haven for bears, chasers and sadomasochistic fetishists. The bar's slogan is "a men's bar where men love men.''

Vachon, 20, was thrown out of the bar in Montreal's gay village on a recent quiet Tuesday afternoon when she sat down for a beer with her father, Gilles Vachon. A bar staffer told Vachon's father that women were not allowed in the bar -- not even on the front patio where the Vachons had sat down.

"On the spot I didn't believe it, I thought it was a bad joke,'' Audrey Vachon said Wednesday in an interview. "I didn't say a word until I'd left. I was too shocked. I was embarrassed, I was humiliated, I felt guilty that I'd even gone there, like I'd done something wrong.''

[...]

Le Stud owner Michel Gadoury says women have been banned most nights since the bar opened 11 years ago. He says he doesn't understand the fuss.

"We're not discriminating, women have the right to come on certain days,'' Gadoury told one media outlet. "It's a choice, it's a choice that my clients make, that they ask me to make, and we're respecting them.''

[...]

Peter Sergakis, the owner of a bar in the gay village and the head of a provincial association of bars, says Le Stud has to get with the times and allow customers to make their own choices. "This should not be happening, it's like going back 20 years ago when the gays were intimidated in straight bars,'' Sergakis said. "I'm sure the owner is going to change the habits. This is not acceptable in 2007.''

[...]

But Hans Janiak of Quebec's gay chamber of commerce pointed out other businesses ban people based on gender to help customers feel comfortable. He pointed to women's gyms that refuse men, strip bars that ban women and dance bars that only allow male-female couples.

"It's not a phenomenon unique to the gay and lesbian community,'' Janiak said. "But it's usually not based on law, but a sort of gentlemen's agreement.''

And Plante added that he still feels uncomfortable holding hands or kissing his partner in some mainstream bars and restaurants. "(Gay) saunas don't exactly welcome women, even lesbians,'' Plante said. "But sometimes this all just comes down to common sense, doesn't it.''

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 31, 2007 - 07:41 AM



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Apart from malice and/or hubris, what possible motivation exists to sit down with your father for a friendly beer at a "truly manly meat market"?

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 31, 2007 - 09:45 AM



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Location: Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia, Canada
L Mr. Green L

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berto
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 01, 2007 - 05:34 AM



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Location: Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia, Canada
Montreal woman who got kicked out of gay bar gets support with protest

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 01, 2007 - 08:09 AM



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Quote:
But a couple accused the women of gay bashing and said they have a right to a place of their own.


Like I said... malice and/or hubris. I'm leaning toward a greater proportion of malice. When discrimination laws or the philosophies behind them are deployed to damage or destroy targeted services of limited general interest but considerable specific value, then those laws or philosophies become instruments of oppression and cultural genocide. Let the bears have their bar. It's not like they exactly get welcomed with open arms in Montreal's nightclubs. They have a specific 'business' to conduct and they should be able to conduct it without interference.

These same principles and tactics could be used to utterly destroy women's space and women's services in Canada. No one would be well-served by doing anything of the kind.

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Feral
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 06, 2007 - 02:31 AM



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Huh. Must be the Blue Moon... I find myself in agreement with Stephen Lock. That'll probably not happen again soon.

Defending Le Stud's gays-only space


Quote:
Various queer communities across Canada have struggled with the issue of integration/assimilation. When does allowing heterosexuals into gay clubs become a problem? How appropriate is it, for instance, when a gay man in a gay club approaches another man only to be told, "I'm straight"? When there are long lines to get into the latest gay hotspot and those of us standing patiently in line see any number of heterosexual couples being allowed in while we continue to wait for access into what is, after all, our bar, are we to accept that because the straights have as much right to be there as we do? At what point do we lose our culture and risk further assimilation by dominant culture?

...

It was not Ms. Vachon who was disrespected in this situation, despite her hurt feelings; it is her sense of entitlement which disrespects the patrons of Le Stud.

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